The ultimate camera thread :)

vvvv beta question
1

Ultimate camera thread

I’ve been gathering information on what better camera will suit me. I want to do blob tracking for interactive instalations.

A lot of people have diferent recomendations, but I still have doubts. I wish that everyone knowledgeble contributes to this thread. Maybe even take it to Wiki level :)

Let’s see if I can share what I think and doubt. First the pre concieved ideas.

Trying to make a list of Positive characteristics .

USB camera (cheap, good for multitouch surfaces)

IP or LAN camera ( ability to have the camera distant from the computer??)
EX: http://www.ids-imaging.de/frontend/overview.php?nav1=25&nav2=78&form_KatTable=menue2&form_KatID=78&changeLang=e

Firewire ( fast, models with ability to do everything manual, like exposure)

Analog ( ability to have the camera distant from the computer?)

Now some questions:

If an analog camera captures pal, and if i use an external video capture device, wont i get scanlines and wont that dificult tracing?

How far can i get a firewire from the pc?

People recomend Unibrain or imagingsource, but the prices are way high. Can i get anything decent for no more than 300 ?

What should I look out for?

And finally

I traded some emails with the people at 1394store.com about their cameras and got this for an anwser:

“…but in general on the non-IR coated lenses you want to avoid bright conditions such as sunlight, halogen and any IR light sources that could damage the CCD sensor. If you have further questions please let us know at”

If I want to do traking I must flood the background with IR light, but that might damage the sensor? I’m confused.

Sorry if this Post isn’t very coherent yet. But i’ll add watever info is relevante to this first post, and try to learn by compilating all the knowledge your are willing to share.

Thank you

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with ‘high’ price comes good quality meaning good sensor chip size, framerate, driver, latency.

i can recommend imagingsource and ids cams. i wasn’t convinced by pointgrey cams (driver bugs) but they work.

and i have to warn ppl, don’t use allied vision cams, they seem to be incapable of supplying a proper WDM driver package (weird installation, bluescreens,chaotic driverpackage-naming)

try to get 1/2" size sensors, my very old imagingsource analog cams with 1/2" sensor beat most of the latest cams in terms of brightness sensitvity because 1/3 or 1/4 seems to be the standard size at the moment.

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hi, i think in every type of camera you can find the correct solution for your needs. For example, usb cameras like ps3eye (playstation cam) is very interesting (it goes at 75fps), and it’s sensibility is good. For multitouch and for ir installations it’s good. Ip or lan, i don’t know ,i never tried it.
Firewire generally has a better quality but with distance from computer problems. I tried unibrain fire-i (but i don’t like it so much) and the guppy (from allied vision). Guppy has a fantastic quality, but there’s no wdm drivers, only the sdk. fortunately hierro made a driver for vvvv.
And finally the analog (i love it) that is very economic and good. The scanline question is true, but theres some ways for resolving it. Sometimes in sufficient a dscaler (deinterlace), or simply reducing the resolution (often a contour goes better with a 320x240 instead a 720x576).
So, finally, i prefer the analog solution :)
hope it helps

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hi,
i’m looking for a wireless solution…
small stage, small transmit range ( < 20 meters)
with a quite good quality (RGB at least 800x600 or 720x576 @25fps):
analog(+ 2.4 ghz emitter/receiver)
link
link
or ip (wireless) camera seems to be the only way…

but i really don’t know where to start:

  • with ip cam there’s no WDM drivers ? sharedmemory + supplied capture software
  • with analog emitter/receiver : does the latency could be a problem for a live stream setup

any suggestions are welcome
thanks

btw the ids GigE ueye cam are quite expensive… >1000€
:(

5

“…but in general on the non-IR coated lenses you want to avoid bright conditions such as sunlight, halogen and any IR light sources that could damage the CCD sensor. If you have further questions please let us know at”

If I want to do traking I must flood the background with IR light, but that might damage the sensor? I’m confused.

Best is to put a Ir-PASS filter in front of cam. Sensors will be protected against unwanted and probably much higher visible-light intensity.

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Okay, Im in favour of Firewire (to make confusion complete ;)

Pros in short:
-industrial standard, wide choice of industry cameras (up to 1600 x 1200px, 12 bit, raw)
-no compression as pixel amount isnt that important if you got color noise by 4:2:0 compression even 640x480 is useless for colortracking. Some cams give you 12bit raw BW image. wikipedia and wikipedia
-thus wide choice of pro lenses (images are done by lenses, cheap plastic is giving you cheap quality)
-transport protocol is build for image transfer, pushs data, no answer check waiting, direct access of computer memory, no CPU work (like USB)
-high bandwith with 400 or 800 Mbbit/s (gigabit ethernet got 1000 Mbit/s) wikipedia
-sufficient cable distance, with active repeater up to 16x 4,5m, (did myself 12m without delay) wikipedia (ok analog and ethernet can more)
-power is in cable, cable is rockstable (compared to wifi)

Cons:
-not low budget

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Oh my. a lot of information, thank you.

wirmachenbunt: Had no luck in finding 1\2" sensors within a good price range for me. When you talk analog cameras, do you mean security cameras or handycams?

Using such an analog camera, I would have to get myself a periferal to get the video. What kind is best do you all think?

Frank: “no compression as pixel amount isnt that important if you got color noise by 4:2:0 compression even 640x480 is useless for colortracking. Some cams give you 12bit raw BW image.”

Not sure what you mean with this sentence.

I’m leaning towards buying :

Either

B\W

Color

I now understand these cameras probably wont cut it if I want to track a people against a wall (using IR lighing and all) But at least it should give me enough quality for touch surfaces.

One question. Should I go for the color one or the B|W. Why is the B\W more expensive? I heard b\W are better for IR tracking, is it true?

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touch surface tracking isn’t less complicated than tracking ppl in front of a wall. for big surfaces you need big resolution, good latency and lots of fps…and a good lens.

in the end, there is the perfect cam for each case, depends what you plan to do and how much money you want to spend.

anyway, sometimes companies lend test cameras, so you dont have to buy a cam without testing it. i know ids imaging lend cams for two weeks.

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Frank: “no compression as pixel amount isnt that important if you got color noise by 4:2:0 compression even 640x480 is useless for colortracking. Some cams give you 12bit raw BW image.”

Not sure what you mean with this sentence.

4:2:0 is reduction of data by color compression - Y’CbCr. You have a 4 Pixel pattern, and out of these 4, take 4 for Luminance (Y) and just 2 for color Green-Blue and nothing for color Green-Red.
In fact, you have only half of Green-Blue resolution from your original resolution. And nothing Green-Red. This colors (reddish) are calculated out of Green-Blue and Luminance and thus visible as color noise.
4:2:0 is standard compression of MiniDV and the reason why its pure nonsense to make blue-keying with DV compression.
Same for colortracking with webcams.
More worse if they have one chip only as bayern patter will reduce color additionally.
Please check this links for deeper explanations. This is very complex stuff: Link and link and link