Some Thoughts about Learning Gamma / Learning structure

Hi, in developing my actually new project, I’m lucky to be supported by Digitalwanabe, who has definitely helped me understand Gamma much better, thxs to him.

But … I’m a lost cause—some things just don’t click at all…
Here is my feedback :

For me we’re missing a lot—really a lot—of general-level documentation.

All the help patches for a node are usually very specific. While a lot of care has been put into help patches, getting a big-picture understanding of an entire family of nodes or how to approach a project as a whole is not easy. Right now, we only get it in fragments, through examples, but something more general is missing. Some will say, “Read the Stride docs.” I think Gamma and its help patches should let me grasp the big picture without spending hours in complex, hardcoder-oriented documentation. After all, we’re in Gamma, with its own subtleties, going beyond the usual library usage.

This feedback is mainly to ask for clarification on best practices in Gamma. Often, on topics I struggle with—like mutability—I find hours of English videos (which I’m not comfortable with), online resources that aren’t always accessible, at least for me. Sometimes someone takes the time to convey the message in a sensitive way (because effective teaching must be sensitive), and that’s great. But it’s not enough.

What’s deeply missing in our wonderful Gamma is a support structure that helps with project design.

A more general level, proof by demonstration, but with a broad, project-oriented vision.

I’d love to see dummy projects showing best practices, for example, in long-term project development. Often, it turns out you can’t mix oranges and tomatoes or bananas… I’d like a dummy project showing how to build and manage a model. For instance, imagine the model as a building: in the building, an apartment; in the apartment, rooms; in the rooms, a table; on the table, a fruit bowl with oranges and bananas. And in another apartment, maybe a sound system and a glass of milk… For me, starting from a dummy project like this would be vague enough to be intuitively understood and easily adapted—whether for images, data, sound, or anything else. I’d like to see best practices for building this model, accessing it, and manipulating it.

Gamma lets me create managers anywhere I want, so I’ve been creating managers inside my models. I only recently realized that what manipulates the model—the functions that handle the model—should not be inside the model. With so much freedom in Gamma, anything is possible, and I ended up with very bad practices. Now, large parts of my project need revisiting because I don’t fully grasp the structuring.

It would help a lot if a few people could build a dummy project to show us all how to work ideally—with ReactiveX, channels, observables—but in a general way, not just for one or a few nodes.
So at the project design level.

Of course, this is meant as constructive feedback—at least, that’s how I feel after a full year of using Gamma. I hope it brings some nice fruit (and not just oranges and bananas)!

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I 100% understand what you mean. I felt/feel the same. As amazing all the help patches are, often it takes a lot of time to find the right help patch to find where something is shown, how it is to be done. I went through the free node courses which give already a better idea but I agree there is one missing where somebody who works in the industry is showing how industry standard projects are build. This would also give people the change to actually get jobs in vvvv companies. Obviously there are coding styles similar to other languages. But the step from how to patch some simple stuff to building proper projects with model, controller, etc is missing imo. I just try to give myself projects and try to apply what have done here. Breakout clone game with VL / 如何制作打砖块的小游戏 - #3 by lby I muted the audio and just tried to build the same structure at least. I don’t know your skill level but I collect some vvvv knowledge in a different way here. the-creative-deconstructor You can also search it and maybe find what you looking for. These are just my 5 cents to this.

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amazing ! i love this idea to recreate this great game :) tahnk you for ressourcing your search about collisions !

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We will definitly hit some of these topics in the workshop the next two days:

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I completly agree also!

I m currently in a middle of a situation like that, where I’m feeling kind of comfortable with the basic stuff but completly lost if I want to scale it up to a bigger project… So many ways to build a logic and a model! So many workflow and not a lot of documentation…

@phlegma Yes in deed and I will be there with my eyes and ears wide open :)

But even if the courses of the node institute are amazing, there not really affortable for everyone, and a format of 3h videos is not really ideal if looking for a spectific problem to solve…

A format of 20/25 min épisode in a série focus on a general project architecture.. Maybe more vvvvtv episode focus on that could be really cool…

Its sometime frustrating to know/feel what a amazing tool is vvvv but not be able to reach it properly…

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Firts thank you @phlegma, its very nice but i would prefer a dedicated workshop to the topic of model and structuration and good habits better than adding some data about UI and differents types of UI in my poor mind !

Orality, especially in subtle and complex subjects is not my way to learn, definitively. Thats why i m asking for dummy project as help files with gamma. It helps to structurate, it helps to learn, its visual. Depends of people.

@Raphael tout à fait d’accord ! little concentrated topics are more effectiv. Tutorial structuration from @tobyk are for example a model for me to follow

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The problem is that topic itself quite big… And there is also a lot of approaches available… I can show you how to setup a large scale application approach based MVVM, reactive, and c#. But I’m not entirely sure it would make your life easier in terms of time it takes to fully build something on it…

The only thing I am entirely against is “you go, do some vids in chapters, we maybe check them latter and decide”, if you wanna learn the workshop/seminar prolly the best… The problem since there is no solid foundation, I want to have dialog, a live feedback, opinions. So not only you learn stuff, but we maybe learn how to do it better together.

If you want we can cooperate and make few live call sessions, like 30 mins / 1 hour each. so I can show you how to setup environments, how to organize packages, what is dependency injection, how the architecture lays: services, models, viewmodels, runtime, how to glue everything together ui, skia, stride. So then we maybe have some response.

I’m pretty sure that, the whole thing is entirely possible in pure vl, just for me maintaining the code is easier then maintain patch, plus I would be really kin to sees something similar done in vl and alternative approaches.

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This is a good place to start for general setup of model and runtime:

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Thank you @antokhio its very nice from you. But my asking is definitively based on a non selfpersonal profitable action. For me we need help patch that would make the construction of a big project way more clear. This may be a dummy project wich would be build step by step, to allow everyone to understand. Thank you so much !

Thank you @tonfilm, already know it (thanks to @digitalwanabe )
i still think we really need in the Help Browser something consequent :)

@antokhio Maybe it could be an interesting format for the vvvv meetup where people for one slot show how they build their projects, not so specific but more structure and provide the patch later. This could help vvvv beginners and creates automatically tutorial content for vvvv

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